Actually thought of something like that a while back Douglas. I don’t think one could get it to work with the few address lines of the Z80, besides if we go DRAM may as well go the full hog and get massive amounts of RAM on the board and high speed.
Was even thinking of some kind of primitive cascade counter, but I suspect that it would not be that simple, else why are there DRAM controllers!
From: John Monahan Ph.D
Chief Scientific Officer
Synthetic Biologics, Inc.
Office: (301) 658-6854
NYSE Amex: SYN
I know it's a silly idea, but the Z-80 has a built in dynamic ram refresh.
But you would probably want to run the 80386 faster than 20MHz.
Just an idea.....
On Jul 12, 2012, at 11:06 AM, John Monahan wrote:
Thanks for excellent suggestions Andrew. I have been reading the Intel manuals a few times now. I do a lot of plane travel and often bring it along! Their manuals are excellent. There is a corresponding software and operating system writers manual as well. BTW, as well, I found the “The Intel Microprocessors” book by Barry B. Brey to be outstanding. There are numerous editions. The best I have is the 7th edition. Easily obtained from Amazon. Recommend it for anybody using hardware with these chips. Goes all the way up to Pentium BTW. My only criticism was the 80286 was lightly done. 80386/80486 much better.
OK back to S-100 board. This is a major undertaking (at least for me). I have been oscillating between the 80386 or jumping over right to the 80486. The latter has one big advantage in the it can accommodate an 8,16 or 32 bit bus dynamically. This for example means you need only one boot PROM and even old S-100 boards (in theory) could be used, not that you would normally use the latter much! However the step from 80286 to 80386 is a bit bigger in terms of hammering signals into S-100 shape.
There is now doubt we will need two boards. In fact with two boards there is no reason why the CPU cannot run at its normal max clock speed with its local memory . Only when we go to the tiny amount or RAM (relatively speaking) on the S-100 bus would we insert 20-30, whatever, wait states or slow the CPU clock down dramatically. The S-100 bus could even be configured possibly as a kind of reverse/slow RAM cash!
However I’m still stuck with how to dynamically refresh the DRAM Simms. The problem is that unlike the typical Intel single CPU examples in our case we have potentially a multiprocessor bus setup. At times the CPU would be in a dormant/reset state. The good news is the only shared RAM would other CPU’s (a 68K for example), would be the S-100 Static RAM.
What I would like to find is a circuit that has self-contained DRAM refresh for 1GB or DRAM (or pseudo-static RAM) circuit.
While on RAM, what is the most dense (commonly available) SMT static RAM chips people have seen. The best I have seen so far is 2MX8 IS61WV20488ALL (Jameco #1862446), a long way from 1GB!
Hi! Please take a look at this documentation for an S-100 80386DX board that’s capable of running a “sophisticated” operating system like Linux or NetBSD:
I agree the “over the top” daughter board may be necessary for all the components. I suggest we place all the CPU and bus control logic on the main CPU board and use a pair of the newer 40 pin (80 wire) IDE connectors to export all the memory and its interface logic to another board.
In the Intel 80386 Hardware Reference Manual there are circuits for interfacing EPROM and DRAM chips. I recommend using the 72 pin DRAM SIMMs since they are “regular” DRAM chips packed on to mini circuit boards and use the same interface as a regular DRAM chip. The key for exporting a memory board will be to have many solid ground connections between the processor and the memory board so we’ll need to keep them close or just make a double thick S-100 board using a mezzanine connector like we did on the S-100 System Monitor Board. If we maximize the full space available it would give us approximately 100 square inches of PCB space minus the usual ~10 square inches of S-100 overhead for voltage regulators, filter capacitors, mezzanine connectors, brackets, mounting holes, clearance margins, etc.
The main benefit of using the 80386DX is that it meets the minimum criteria for a “sophisticated” operating system like NetBSD or Linux which are both essentially SysV/BSD Un*x derivatives/mutants. AFAIK the minimum requirement is a 32 bit ISA and an MMU with enough address space to hold a rather large kernel and associated components.
The memory 16MB addressing limit of the S-100 bus would be possible in theory to hold Linux or NetBSD but would be extremely limiting in my opinion unless we were seeking a mini Linux like Freesco. We should strive for as large a memory space as possible and I believe 256MB (28 address lines) is a realistic goal using a pair of 128MB DRAM SIMMs. However, this would require at least 24 true address lines being multiplexed to DRAM A0-A11 and 8 individual separate CASx/RASx pairs. To get the density we will need, I think DRAM is the only realistic option without resorting to hobbyist unfriendly large SMT devices. Also we can add a pair of 27C1024 16-bit EPROMs for a full 32 bit data path to the boot ROMs.
This is an enormous project and I recommend starting with a relatively low CPU speed like 4 MHz as a starting point. Once the basic hardware is working identify the bottlenecks one at a time and gradually increase the clock speed. John is well familiar with this technique since all the CPU boards to date have gone down that path.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Santa Maria, CA
"Even a blind pig finds a truffle now and then" oink oink!!
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