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Re: [N8VEM-S100:1745] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement



Yes, John, but many of us want to be able to use the front panel on
old  IMSAI and Altair chassis...

one should be able to make a board that will drive the front panel as
well as the bus...




~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~

Tom Lafleur
(858) 759-9692


On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 9:24 AM, John Monahan <mon...@vitasoft.org> wrote:
> Guy’s on this 8080 CPU board, we “talked” about this board in early summer.
> I just want to remind you that this is NOT an IEEE-696 compatible board.
> The board will not have sufficient drive capacity for most other S100
> boards, not data out lines to the bus, or share the bus in any kind of DMA,
> Master/Slave capacity.
>
>
>
> It is really a “demo” type card to show the 8080 working in the S100 bus.
> Absolutely nothing wrong with this let me stress, but don’t expect to for
> example run CPM with a floppy disk controller, IDE Hard Disk controller in
> the bus.  For this we need board bus drivers etc. Data I/O etc.
>
>
>
> The Z80 board described here:-
>
> http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80%20CPU%20Board.htm
>
> will do this. As will countless other S100 boards on eBay.
>
>
>
> Let me stress, this is a very nice board to illustrate how a CPU controls a
> bus.  Building it would be quite rewarding and a good stepping stone for
> beginners to start with.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
>
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
>
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
>
> From: John Monahan [mailto:mon...@vitasoft.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:45 PM
> To: 'n8vem...@googlegroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1671] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> OK guys, I thinking leave things exactly as Josh has them. It will be  demo
> type board. If one wants to get serious later on,  build up a multi-board
> system with Z80’s CPU boards etc.  That way one can use eBay boards of some
> of our own S100Computers/N8VEM boards.
>
>
>
> I will hopefully instead in the next few weeks, start on a new/improved SMB.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
>
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
>
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Jack Rubin
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:31 PM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1671] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> I’m thinking that for easy “native” front panel support, 8080 is really the
> way to go, at least for the stated apps. Why contort a z80 to provide front
> panel support when an 8080 will just work?
>
>
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Lafleur
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:00 PM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [N8VEM-S100:1670] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> I agree, we need a simple board...
>
> my two bits....
>
> An SBC would be great
>
> one serial ports is fine, option for a 2nd is nice
>
> an SD card is very nice to boot from
>
> 64k or ram min
>
> front panel connector for Altair and imsi system a must
>
> boot rom option??, be able to disable it... not sure why we may need this
> with PIC doing the boot??
>
>
>
> Options:
>
> Z80 would be nice, speed has to work with front panel on older systems like
> Altair and Imsi
>
> connection to the full S100 bus would be nice, but it need to be simple...
>
> option to be able to use more that 64K of memory, ie : a 2nd 128x8 chip on
> board with simple MMU??
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Jack Rubin <j...@ckrubin.us> wrote:
>
> I think a lot of us would like the SBC that Josh described originally. I’ve
> got several front panel machines that I want to run in display mode using
> TEI short chassis boxes. Think front panel, SBC board and 6 slot
> motherboard. 8080 CPU preferred.
>
>
>
> The key to this is the proper front slot offset. For boards using the IMSAI
> style chassis, the space between slots 1 and 2 is 1” and the spacing between
> all subsequent slots is ¾” (not sure if I’ve remembered the exact
> measurements correctly but there is definitely a difference between the
> first two and all others). The N8VEM backplane might work if you give up
> slot two but card slide spacing will be off. Anyhow, that’s my rationale for
> a true SBC.
>
>
>
> I’d still be interested in the ‘SMB-III’ you describe below but it is a very
> different animal with a different purpose.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jack
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of John Monahan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:11 AM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1668] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> Thanks for all the detail below Josh. That explains a lot.  Seeing what you
> have there for a very specific indication/need it all makes sense.
>
>
>
> That said, I’m now thinking that what might make more sense for a broader
> audience is a more general “All in one” (SBC) Z80 driven S-100 bus board
> that would be a debugging board for a first board system.  However the whole
> thing could quickly spin out of control with complexity fast.  How
> self-contained is the PIC/Flash card circuit.  What is the minimum
> requirement to drop code at 80H upwards.
>
>
>
> Alternatively I thinking about a far better SMB-II
> (http://www.s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/SMB%20Board/S100%20Bus%20SMB.htm)
> that has more diagnostic/control capabilities and could be used in a two
> card S-100 system with most CPU boards.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
>
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
>
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Crusty OMO
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:14 AM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1665] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for looking at the schematics.  I was trying to explain earlier that
> this board still needs more care to bring it up to a full S-100 card.  I
> built it as fast as possible to serve as a SBC (Single Board Computer) that
> would allow the IMSAI front panel to work.  I only paid specific attention
> to signal lines that the CPA (Front Panel) card requires.
>
> I also chose to build this board around the original 8080A CPU because it
> makes running the Front Panel much simpler and is the original CPU of the
> IMSAI and ALTAIR.  You mentioned how the Z80 can be worked to run the S-100
> bus, and it's been done before in many ways.  I built this board for the
> IMSAI, not for speed.  Also, since this board was built as a CPU replacement
> for the IMSAI at my local PC Museum, I wanted to say that the IMSAI was
> being run by an original 8080A cpu.
>
> On my prototype board, I didn't bother to connect the Data bus to the S-100
> bus because it was intended to be a single board computer.  I only connected
> DO5, because it is required by the IMSAI front panel to stop (Wait mode) the
> 8080A CPU.  Of course, DO5 is driven by a 74LS244.  This board requires a
> little steering logic to engage the S-100 Data In bus.  As-is, the SBC would
> never need to get data from the S-100 bus, but when the Phantom line or the
> RAM block disable features are added, then Data-In will need to be engaged
> (through a 74LS244) for external card reads.
>
> Re Wait states.
> The 7474 chip is clocked on to engage wait state when ever a pINP, pOUT
> occurs or when a pMEMR AND the BOOT flip flop is set.  The PIC is triggered
> by the 7474, and responds according to pDBIN, sOUT, A0,A1,A2 and the
> condition of the BOOT flip flop.
> If in BOOT mode, the PIC outputs the next instruction byte to spoon feed the
> 8080A.
> Else, If pDBIN is set, the PIC outputs the I/O byte addressed by A0,A1,A2
> (could be UART or Floppy Disk)
> if sOUT is set, the PIC accepts the I/O byte addressed by A0, A1, A2.
> At the end of any PIC Read or Write cycle, the PIC resets the 7474 thus
> releasing the 8080A from the Wait State.
>
> It is not clear on the schematic how pMEMR, pINP and pOUT are generated.  I
> labeled those lines sMEMR, sINP and sOUT but that isn't correct since these
> signals happen at the start of STSTB signal which is a whole phase 1 clock
> width before the sMEMR, sINP and sOUT.  I couldn't use sMEMR, sINP and sOUT
> to trigger a wait state, they occur too late in the cycle.  Drove me nuts
> when I tried to on my first design cycle!
>
> A 74LS165 and 8 position switch is fine for providing a fixed wait state of
> N cycles depending on the switch setting.  The Wait state entered here is to
> allow the PIC chip all the time it needs to fetch/set the UART and/or data
> to the Flash Memory (emulating a floppy disk).  The PIC can hold the 8080A
> in a WAIT state for as long as it takes to write sectors to the FLASH, etc.
> A PIC was used here to minimize chip count on the board.
>
> 2Mhz can be obtained from the 8224 chip (like in the original IMSAI CPU
> card).
>
> SDSB*, DOSB*, CDSB*, and the Address bus disable lines just need to be
> connected to the 74LS244 Hi-Z control.  I skipped this on my prototype
> because it wasn't needed for a SBC, but that's no big deal to fix.
>
> :)Josh
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: mon...@vitasoft.org
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1661] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
> Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 11:00:32 -0700
>
> Josh I just started to look at the 8080 board schematic in detail. Sorry
> about the late arrival on this.
>
> How are the separate S100 bus data in and data out lines being driven. On
> the right hand side in middle of the page you have labels DI4..DO3.  If
> these are connected directly to the 8080 D0 –D7 this would create a problem
> in any system that has other cards.  Not only is the drive capability of the
> 8080 limited but there would be DMA issues, noise issues, and forget any
> master/slave CPU handover capability.  There has to be separate data in/out
> bus drivers.  I’m also not clear how wait stares are being done. Is the PIC
> programming to output separate/different  bits for SMEMR, SINP, SOUT etc. A
> single 74LS165 and 8 position switch may be simpler.  But I may be
> overlooking something you are doing.
>
>
>
> We need a separate 2MHz clock for pin 49 (old URAT boards use this signal) .
> All status, control, address and data lines (both directions) need drivers
> that can be disabled with SDSB*, DOSB*,CDSB* etc. You have some of the
> drivers, it’s just you have the enable pins grounded.  As It stands this
> board would almost have to be the only board in the bus. It may work with
> some of the every early Altair boards, but I think it would be fairly
> limited.  Already mentioned need for address lines up to A20.
>
>
>
>
>
> Guys before we go any further this may be a good time to think out what we
> want to accomplish.
>
>
>
> If we want to have a “one board system” to play with for CPM 1.4 on a Flash
> card in an Altair like box with a front panel etc. we can of course do this.
>
>
>
> Here are my concerns.  I don’t think it will work with many later S-100
> boards, and probably not with most, if not all, of the new IEEE-696 style
> S100 boards we have done in the past few years or those out there on eBay
> etc..
>
>
>
> The neat part of the board is Joshes’ PIC boot and Flash card combination
> along with a simple UART I/O interface.  I think that is really great.
>
>
>
> My concerns is not only the hardware issues above but there is a lot of
> software out there that utilizes Z80 opcodes. Primarily block moves and bit
> testing.  The hassle of redoing them for say the IDE/CF card board, ZFDC
> floppy disk controller board, video boards etc is going to be time
> consuming. Not rocket science, but a pain.  I don’t really know how many CPM
> software programs themselves need Z80’s
>
>
>
> Here is a suggestion. We switch to a Z80/RAM/ROM core.  It’s a three chip
> set (already used in the ZFDC board).    The only “hairy” part is hammering
> some of its control signals into 8080/S100 bus shape.   We did it (with much
> overkill) on the Z80 CPU board.
>
>
>
> The end goal would be to have a single self-contained S-100 bus Z80 board
> that would allow users to boot strap up CPM 1.4 as josh did here, and later
> add other S-100 boards. With the long term goal of actually replacing that
> board with a much more elaborate multi-CPU board system.
>
>
>
> Please understand I  am not trying to force a vision on others as to which
> way we go. Make no mistake all these boards take time and effort, Andrew and
> I have 5 or 6 currently in the pipeline, if we take on this one as well we
> need to be clear where we are heading with it.
>
>
>
> Comments please.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Tom Lafleur
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 6:45 AM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [N8VEM-S100:1658] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> New specs look good...
>
> TPA: The read/write memory between address 0100 hexadecimal and the lowest
> address of the BDOS was the transient program area (TPA) available for CP/M
> application programs, ie: all of ram, except BIOS
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 6:39 AM, Crusty OMO <crus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is TPA?
>
> Ok, this is the list of features/changes,
> -full 64K, a single 32pin 128Kx8 will save a lot of board real estate.
> -Phantom line to "create holes" by external cards
> -Jumper blocks of memory for external S-100 bus mapping.
> -Optional ROM.
> -An extra UART for a 2nd serial port.
> -Sockets for both the IMSAI and ALTAIR front panels
>
> :)J
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Subject: Re: [N8VEM-S100:1655] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
> From: laf...@lafleur.us
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 18:08:41 -0700
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
>
>
>
> With the board the way it is.   You can run CPM with just one card with full
> TPA.    This is good.!!!! N
>
> ~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~
>
> Sent from my Phone
>
>
>
>
> On May 12, 2013, at 5:28 PM, Crusty OMO <crus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, makes sense.  I think using only 32K of RAM would be a simpler design.
> No jumpers to disable the on board RAM in blocks.
> It is nice to be able to address other boards on the S-100 bus, perhaps
> someone has video cards they would like to run?
>
> Having a full 64K means we need jumpers if we are to add some flexibility.
> If we keep it as-is, then you can never access memory on the S-100 bus,
> since all the memory is on the single board (which is fine for my
> application at the museum but not so cool for others who might like to
> access other cards).
>
> :)J
>
> ________________________________
>
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 10:01:30 -0700
> Subject: Re: [N8VEM-S100:1651] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
> From: laf...@lafleur.us
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
>
> keep as much RAM as you can, 128Kx8 are just fine, its ok to not use it
> all....
>
> keep it simple, do not over design it!
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:54 AM, John Monahan <mon...@vitasoft.org> wrote:
>
> Josh since there is plenty of room on the board I would keep the 64K. In
> fact since they are so cheap these days I would use one chip. There are no
> common 64X8 statics but plenty of 128x8’s static RAMS. Either waste the
> upper half or use banking.  I have not analyzed the board thoroughly but how
> are you doing the ROM/Monitor. Is the PIC acting as a ROM. We could easily
> add a 4K ROM in place of the one of 2 RAM slots.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Crusty OMO
> Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:41 AM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1649] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> John,  I agree, the changes to bring it up to S-100 standards will be minor.
>
> Currently, the board works stand alone.  It would be nice if people could
> use other S-100 cards with it, eg. RAM cards to test, Video card, etc.
>
> To keep it simple, I think we can just remove the upper 32K of RAM, CP/M
> runs fine in the lower 32K. The only reason I did the full 64K was because I
> needed to cache 4K sectors from the FLASH chip and I used 4K of the 8080A
> address space to do it.  I would really like to go back and do this caching
> within the PIC address space.  I just didn't have the time on my first dead
> line to add extra memory to the PIC.  Perhaps there's another PIC chip that
> has 4K of RAM on the chip?  I bet there is.
>
> :)J
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: mon...@vitasoft.org
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1648] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
> Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 20:02:43 -0700
>
> Josh if we can persuade Andrew to do a schematic layout. I will hammer it
> into IEEE-696 shape.  Don’t worry Tom the additions would be fairly minor.
> Just want it to be able to work with our current boards
>
> John
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Crusty OMO
> Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2013 6:55 PM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1646] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> My design definitely requires refinement to make it IEEE696 compliant.  It
> started off as a single board replacement, but if we are going to make it
> into a nice board, it needs more attention to the S-100 details.  I'm neck
> deep in my next project at the moment (building a Floppy Disk reader at the
> read pulse level).  But when I can get my prototype back in my hands, I'll
> continue this design (and add the Altair connector).
>
> I should be getting my Alair in a couple of weeks, so I'll shelve this
> project until then.  If anyone has time to work on it, then I'd love to get
> more advise.
>
> PS. How should Phantom work?  Does it just override the Chip Select of the
> RAM?
>
> PPS. I have the book "Interfacing to S-100 / IEE696 microcomputers" by Sol
> Libes and Mark Garetz.  Very good book, feel free to reference any pages in
> it.
>
> :)J
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: mon...@vitasoft.org
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1645] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
> Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 21:14:43 -0700
>
> Absolutly minimally Josh the IEEE-696 upper address lines (A16-A20) need to
> be pulled to ground (via a 74LS244 or something).  Take a look at the pin
> designations. See here:- http://s100computers.com/History.htm  (bottom of
> page) for all the lines.  Make sure Phantom like is working correctly. May
> want to pull to ground Data lines 7 to 15 for port I/O’s. These for starts.
>
> John
>
>
>
> John Monahan Ph.D
> e-mail: mon...@vitasoft.org
> Text:    mon...@txt.att.net
>
>
>
>
> From: n8vem...@googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Crusty OMO
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 4:29 PM
> To: n8vem...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1641] IMSAI 8080 CPU card replacement
>
>
>
> John,
>
> One more thing about this board...
> As is, it runs great, but perhaps it could use a little more flexibility.
>
> It has the full 64K (local on the same board), but I'm thinking perhaps it
> should have less or optionally allow some address space from the S-100 bus.
> ie, jumper select blocks of address space that are to be gotten from the
> S-100 bus?
>
> Comments?
>
> :) Josh
>
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> ~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~
>
> Tom Lafleur
> (858) 759-9692
>
>
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> ~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~
>
> Tom Lafleur
> (858) 759-9692
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
> Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6321 - Release Date: 05/13/13
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~~~ _/) ~~
>
> Tom Lafleur
> (858) 759-9692
>
> --
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "N8VEM-S100" group.
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> email to n8vem-s100+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6321 - Release Date: 05/13/13
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> email to n8vem-s100+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>